Re: [PATCH v3 15/15] Introduce v18 dtb version

[David Gibson]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2026 at 09:42:33AM +0100, Herve Codina wrote:
> Hi David,
> 
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2026 13:11:14 +1100
> David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Oct 23, 2026 at 10:55:11AM +0200, Herve Codina wrote:
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > On Fri, 23 Oct 2026 13:57:54 +1100
> > > David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >   
> > > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2026 at 03:14:54PM +0200, Herve Codina wrote:  
> > > > > Hi David,
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Thu, 22 Oct 2026 14:17:38 +1100
> > > > > David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > >     
> > > > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2026 at 05:20:43PM +0200, Herve Codina wrote:    
> > > > > > > Hi David,
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > On Wed, 21 Oct 2026 13:26:49 +1100
> > > > > > > David Gibson <david@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Ok, my proposal seems to be a no-go and so I will follow your proposal given
> > > > > > > > > above.        
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > To be clear, I'm rejecting the original proposal because I think it's
> > > > > > > > internally inconsistent (if you follow the consequences of decisions
> > > > > > > > far enough).  I'm not necessarily opposed to something other than the
> > > > > > > > above, as long as the rules for when unknown tags must be invalidated
> > > > > > > > (and what that does to the version) are made very clear in the
> > > > > > > > structured tag spec.  e.g. see an alternative proposal below.      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > No problem, I understand your point.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > ...
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Essentially the theory of the proposal above is to be maximally
> > > > > > > > conservative: any write (adding, removing, changing, in-place,
> > > > > > > > whatever) will invalidate all unknown tags and downgrade the version.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > But, here's an alternative proposal for invalidation/version semantics
> > > > > > > > that I think is consistent, while being a bit closer to your original
> > > > > > > > proposal.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > 1. version and last_comp_version retain their meanings.  No new header
> > > > > > > >    version.      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 2. If version >= 18 the tree may include any structured tags, even if
> > > > > > > >    they weren't defined as of v18.      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 3. Some future version might _require_ certain structured tags to be
> > > > > > > >    present.  But a client must only rely on those tags if the version
> > > > > > > >    indicates it can.
> > > > > > > >      - e.g. suppose FDT_FOO tag is introduced in v20.  A client
> > > > > > > >        reading a v19 tree _might_ see some FDT_FOO tags (because of
> > > > > > > >        (2)), but cannot rely on them being present in all the places
> > > > > > > >        they should be.      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok, kind of degraded mode. Whether or not a v20 compatible client can continue
> > > > > > > or not will depend of each tags known by this v20 client. For some tags, having
> > > > > > > them removed will not be a problem whereas it will be a problem for some other.      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Exactly.
> > > > > >     
> > > > > > > Makes sense.
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 4. Any write to a property (including in place) invalidates all
> > > > > > > >    unknown tags on that property (they must be stripped)      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 5. Any write to a property invalidates all unknown tags on that
> > > > > > > >    property's node      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Will see in the implementation. The offset of the written property will be
> > > > > > > incorrect after the write. Indeed, some tags (tags related to the node)
> > > > > > > available before the property can be removed. With splices instead of
> > > > > > > FDT_NOP, offsets change.      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Oh, good point, this rule doesn't work.  I think we still have a
> > > > > > consistent set of rules if property writes don't invalidate parent
> > > > > > node tags (subnode add/delete still would).  Of coutse, that does
> > > > > > further restrict what sorts of information you could safely put in
> > > > > > node tags under this scheme.
> > > > > >     
> > > > > > > This also brings a question. Are API functions such as fdt_get_property_by_offset_w()
> > > > > > > need to be deprecated?      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I think we can keep it - kind of like fdt_next_tag() this is a
> > > > > > low-level function.  If you use it, you're opting in to having to deal
> > > > > > with tag invalidation.
> > > > > >     
> > > > > > > Those kind of functions return a pointer to the data of a property for modification
> > > > > > > by the caller. We don't know if the caller will modify or not the property.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Without deprecated it we can change the function to
> > > > > > > ---- 8< ----
> > > > > > > struct fdt_property *fdt_get_property_by_offset_w(void *fdt,
> > > > > > > 						  int offset,
> > > > > > > 						  int *lenp)
> > > > > > > {
> > > > > > > 	int new_offset;
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > >         /*
> > > > > > >          * The modification is goind to be done out of libfdt.
> > > > > > >          * Unknown tags are removed (rules for modification when unknown tags
> > > > > > >          * are involved) but also known tags. Indeed, we cannot know if the
> > > > > > >          * modification will have impacts on known tags
> > > > > > >          */
> > > > > > > 	new_offset = fdt_remove_all_tags_due_to_property_modification(fdt, offset);
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > 	return (struct fdt_property *)(uintptr_t)
> > > > > > > 		fdt_get_property_by_offset(fdt, new_offset, lenp);
> > > > > > > }
> > > > > > > ---- 8< ----
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > The idea is to be conservative here also and consider that property data retrieved
> > > > > > > for writing will be modified by the caller.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Also, the offset used as parameter of fdt_get_property_by_offset_w() is no more
> > > > > > > valid after the call.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Last point to have in mind, getting the node offset from the property offset will
> > > > > > > need to walk the tree from the beginning. It can be costly.      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Right, that's what I was thinking of when I said this might not be
> > > > > > practical to implement.  It's doable in the common case where we alter
> > > > > > properties by node offset + property name, but not when we use a
> > > > > > property offset.  But the fact that this would change the offset of
> > > > > > the property in queestion is a much bigger showstopper.
> > > > > >     
> > > > > > > > 6. Adding or deleting a property on a node invalidates all unknown tags
> > > > > > > >    on the node      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok.
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 7. Adding or deleting a subnode invalidates all unknown tags on the
> > > > > > > >    node      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok.
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 8. Whenever a tag is invalidated and stripped, the overall version
> > > > > > > >    must be downgraded (to let clients know they can't count on tags
> > > > > > > >    being present)      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok.
> > > > > > >       
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Points (4)-(7) are all somewhat negotiable.  In particular, I'm not
> > > > > > > > sure how feasible (6) is to implement.      
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Well, this new proposal is more complex to implement than your first
> > > > > > > proposal but it has a finer grain to handle unknown tags on modification.      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Certainly - that's why I proposed the other one first :).
> > > > > >     
> > > > > > > I can try to implement something based on this new proposal.      
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > To be clear, I kind of prefer my first proposal still.  The question
> > > > > > is whether what the updated scheme buys (preserving more tags when a
> > > > > > bootloader makes minor writes) worth the added complexity of
> > > > > > implementation.  You're better placed to answer that question than I
> > > > > > am.    
> > > > > 
> > > > > I would like to avoid bootloaders being blocking points and so:
> > > > >  a) They should not failed if they encounter an unknown skippable tag.
> > > > >     We are in sync on this point.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  b) They should preserve tags as much as possible.
> > > > >     The goal is to allow following software components (probably the Kernel)
> > > > >     to handle new tags.
> > > > >     This is the point where the right balance has be found.    
> > > > 
> > > > Right.  I understand why these are both desirable.  However (b) is
> > > > pretty tricky, because of the question of invalidation.  It
> > > > necessarily involves a tradeoff between how much can be preserved
> > > > versus what sorts of information future tags can carry.
> > > >   
> > > > > Your first proposal is maybe too much aggressive on b). That's why, even it
> > > > > is more complex to implement I would prefer your last proposal (taking into
> > > > > account the property offset issue) which can be summarize with the following
> > > > > table:
> > > > > 
> > > > >                       | existing prop | existing node (1)   | Downgrade
> > > > >                       | unknown tag   | unknown tag         | version (2)
> > > > > ----------------------+---------------+---------------------+-----------
> > > > > Modify a property (5) |    Remove     | Keep (3) 	    | Yes
> > > > > Add a property        |    NA         | Remove              | Yes
> > > > > Delete a property     |    Remove     | Remove              | Yes (4)
> > > > > Add a sub-node        |    NA         | Remove              | Yes
> > > > > Delete a sub-node     |    NA         | Remove              | Yes
> > > > > ----------------------+---------------+---------------------+-----------    
> > > > 
> > > > Great summary, thanks.
> > > >   
> > > > > (1) The existing node is the node were the property or sub-node involved
> > > > >     are present. Not all nodes, not the parent node but the node directly
> > > > >     impacted by the modification.
> > > > > 
> > > > > (2) We downgrade the version only if tag are removed. If no unknown tags are
> > > > >     involved (and so not removed), the version will not be be downgraded.    
> > > > 
> > > > Sadly, that doesn't work.  We have to downgrade on property
> > > > modification for the same reason we must downgrade on adding a
> > > > property: it might be adding data that requires certain tags in the
> > > > later version.  
> > > 
> > > Oh yes, I missed that point.
> > > 
> > > (2) The version is always downgrade on any changes (modification, addition,
> > >     deletion of a property or a sub-node) even if no tags are removed.
> > >     Indeed the modification done (even a property or sub-node deletion) can
> > >     requires certain tags in the later version.
> > >     Downgrading the version on all changes is the way to state that the
> > >     resulting dtb may be no more compliant with the later version.  
> > 
> > Probably wants some editing for clarity in the final version, but
> > basically sounds good.
> > 
> > > > > (3) Removing unknown tags in the node when a property is modified will lead
> > > > >     to the property offset change. Prefer avoid the property offset change
> > > > >     and so keep node related unknown tags in that case.    
> > > > 
> > > > Right, if we did that it would basically mean totally (and
> > > > incompatibly) redesigning the libfdt interface.
> > > >   
> > > > > (4) The version is downgrade only if we remove some tags related to the
> > > > >     node. If we remove only tags related to the property we delete, there
> > > > >     is no reason to downgrade the version.    
> > > > 
> > > > Unlike (2), I'm not certain if this one is unsafe.  But I suspect it
> > > > might be, and having it behave differently from case (2) seems
> > > > confusing to me.  
> > > 
> > > Hum ok, let be conservative and remove the note (4).
> > > 
> > > The updated note (2) handles all modification. On any changes with and without
> > > tag removal, the version is downgraded.  
> > 
> > Ok.
> > 
> > > > > (5) All property modifications done outside libfdt using directly the
> > > > >     property data pointer will not lead to any unknown tag removal.
> > > > >     
> > > > >     This point is for the usage of fdt_get_property_by_offset_w(),
> > > > >     fdt_get_property_namelen_w(), fdt_get_property_w(),
> > > > >     fdt_getprop_by_offset_w(), fdt_getprop_namelen_w(), fdt_getprop_w() and
> > > > >     maybe other similar functions where the property is returned writable
> > > > >     for possible modification. 'modify a property' mentioned in the table
> > > > >     is related to modification done using fdt_setprop_*() and fdt_appendprop_*()
> > > > >     function families.    
> > > > 
> > > > Right.  "I know what I'm doing" is part of the implicit contract when
> > > > using those functions.  
> > > 
> > > Also this note (5) will be updated
> > > 
> > > (5) All property modifications done outside libfdt using directly the
> > >     property data pointer will not lead to any unknown tag removal nor
> > >     a version downgrade.  
> > 
> > The idea's right, though I don't think that expresses it particularly
> > well.  Not a priority right now, we can revise that later.
> > 
> > > > > On your side, is all of that conservative enough to be used when modification
> > > > > involved unknown tags?    
> > > > 
> > > > Not quite, as noted, but we might be able to get it there.  
> > > 
> > > Is it better?  
> > 
> > Yes, it is.
> 
> Ok, I think we've reached an agreement :)

I concur.

> We have a new set of rules for handling "unknwon" tags on modification.
> I will implement this set in the next iteration.

Sounds good.  Let's hope there's not some showstopper inconsistency
neither of us spotted yet.

-- 
David Gibson (he or they)	| I'll have my music baroque, and my code
david AT gibson.dropbear.id.au	| minimalist, thank you, not the other way
				| around.
http://www.ozlabs.org/~dgibson

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